SPI Logistics Interview with Highway – Mike Mikulik & Jordan Graft

Mike Mikulik [00:00:00]:
Thanks for coming out to our office. I know it was a long trip. Where’d you coming from?

Jordan [00:00:03]:
I’m from Dallas. So we’re based in Dallas, Texas. So you

Mike Mikulik [00:00:05]:
just blew up Dallas to here just for fun?

Jordan [00:00:07]:
No. No. Just come see you guys.

Mike Mikulik [00:00:08]:
Come see you guys. That’s awesome, man. I love the I love the support we’re getting from you guys too. And, basically, I wanted to make Something up, just a little talk a bit about your company, how it can benefit shippers. Just the overview even where the market’s heading as well too. So May 1st, I mean, there’s a ton of challenges going on with bullbroker and fraud in the market. Like, why was highway formed and, like, Like, what’s it gonna do to help us, so we can try to avoid this or at least eradicate a lot of the double up front?

Jordan [00:00:36]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So, my background is in software development and and banking. And so and the banking side, you know, what’s interesting to me is we have Imagine you went to a bank and you wanted to borrow $250,000. Right? The bank’s gonna know everything about you. Right? They don’t just hand you the money and let you walk out or it’s, you know, KYC or an underwriting process. And what was interesting to me as I was running TriumphPay prior to this, you know, we, You know, we would get calls from brokers being like, hey. Stop payment on this load.

Jordan [00:01:04]:
Don’t pay that carrier. And, you know, maybe ask the question, why? What happened? What do you know that you don’t wanna pay the anymore, then they delivered the load, and and that’s where I started to uncover. Okay. They didn’t want you to pay because they got double broker. They’re holding a hostage or something’s happening, and it led Let me see. Like, okay. Well, how do we prevent it from happening here? How do we go upstream of what’s, you know, before the payment? How do we prevent them from even getting on the load and getting in the network at all. And that led me to, like, doing some investigation about what the underwriting process looked like, in the in the freight broker community.

Jordan [00:01:36]:
And I just saw this opportunity to bring Some of the standards that we’re used to in the financial services world and bring that to to light for brokers so they can see who’s really hauling their freight. You know, there’s there’s 380,000 roughly carriers at Interstate Motor Carrier Authority in the US. Right. And what I talk to people about a lot is What’s scary about that number is there’s nowhere near that many carriers actually running in the US. Right? From the data we saw when I was running TriumphPay on the payment side, from the data we see on the the insurance stuff we work on at Highway, it’s nowhere near 350,000 carriers. And so What we tell people is having carrier authority doesn’t make you a carrier. We we wanna we wanna help brokers have transparency to who they’re really about to put that load on with so So that it’s preventive care. Prevents bad things from getting into your network at all, and, yeah, it may be more painful on the front end, But what we’re trying to do is weed out the the the sheep from the wolves.

Jordan [00:02:34]:
Right? And and it’s hard because as you know, like, There’s a there’s not a lot of transparency today, and trying to bring transparency into that market, we we do get pushback at times from from carriers. But What we’re slowly seeing is carriers see that highway is not here to make their life harder, not here to take advantage of them. We don’t charge them money. We’re not trying to take money out of their pocket. We’re trying to bring the good ones to the surface. And so if we do that, then the brokers want to work with the carriers that provide that transparency. And it’s a cycle that’s gonna make this this industry better and get rid of a lot of this nonsense that’s going on today.

Mike Mikulik [00:03:05]:
That’s that’s exactly what’s needed. I mean, the whole thing with double broker fraud. This has been around for a long time, But, like, how what what did it all accelerate to the point we’re at today? Because it’s horrible right now what’s going on.

Jordan [00:03:17]:
Yeah. So if you think about, fraud or just Specifically, freight fraud. Fraud needs 3 things to survive. So, like, so, like, fire needs heat. It needs it needs fuel. It needs oxygen. So when you try and Got a fire and try and put out 1 of those 3 or 2 of those 3 things to to extinguish a fire. Fraud means anonymity, needs urgency, and it needs the prospect of gain.

Jordan [00:03:37]:
So the prospect of gain is pretty easy. Right? You got a $200,000 loan, and you’re paying someone $2,000 to, you know, to to run it for you. There’s a big upside if they do something nefarious. The urgency freight and especially in the brokered freight community, there’s a ton of urgency. This needs to pick up today. It needs to pick up in 2 hours. Right? There’s a lot of that urgency that allows For the it just creates a greater opportunity for fraud to to occur. And then the anonymity.

Jordan [00:04:02]:
Right? A lot of what we deal with when we’re working with carriers is is over email or phone or they they found us on on the public law board, and so we’re trying to pierce the veil on the anonymity and let you see who’s really on the other side of that transaction, And that so those 3 things together. Okay? Those 3 things together is what’s led to this this explosion of fraud over the last 18 months. You know, 20 years ago, you didn’t have the same level of urgency. 20 years ago, you weren’t able to move carriers through your network as fast as you were. 20 years ago, it wasn’t that the shipper’s horn is demanding about, hey. I want this to pick up in 2 hours or 4 hours, and, you know, expecting that you would get that done for them. So this industry’s kind of Let itself to this point where you’ve you’ve created so much efficiency and speed in the transaction that now combined with the anonymity, there’s just A ton of opportunity for people that aren’t even in the US or Canada. Right.

Jordan [00:04:54]:
If they’re overseas, they’ve never set foot in the US, but they have US carrier authority, and they’re able to, you Now they’re able to make themselves appear like they’re a motor carrier. Wow.

Mike Mikulik [00:05:04]:
So DC is getting worse. Like, we may we’re coming into 2024. 2023 has been Crazy year. I mean, we’ve all had horror stories. I mean, our company, we’ve seen aspects of fraud take place just within our own company with carriers. What’s it gonna look like for 2024? Do you have thoughts as is it getting worse? Is are we gonna slowly start seeing things mellow out a bit, or is this I I promise here to stay.

Jordan [00:05:26]:
Yeah. And I’d say let’s talk about the the the market as a whole and then talk about highway brokers specifically. So the market as a whole, yes. Like, there used to be increases in not only, stolen loads, but, like, the the double brokering, the load phishing, all of that is continuing to It increased because there is still opportunity for these for for criminals to create a gain for themselves. With highway brokers, we’ve seen on Average across all the brokers that use us, a 97% reduction in fraudulent activity with highway.

Mike Mikulik [00:05:58]:
That’s huge.

Jordan [00:05:59]:
And so it’s made a huge difference for a lot of brokers saving, saving them not only the the losses. Right? Not only the financial losses of having to to to pay the deductible and stolen load or double pay on a double brokered load, But also the reputational damage. Right? You think about a stolen load. It’s not just paying the deductible. That shipper you’ve impacted that shipper’s business, And and that’s that’s 10 times more expensive than the financial cost, and that’s where you lose the customer because they say, okay. Maybe Yeah. Sure. Your insurance covered the cost of the load, but I missed out on a sales opportunity.

Jordan [00:06:34]:
Right? The goods that I needed to get out to the retail distribution center or the wholesalers Distribution center didn’t make it, and so I didn’t get that revenue opportunity. So, you know, you’ve you’ve negatively impacted their business. So we we talk a lot about Highway about owning the outcome. And so at Highway, we’re not just a software provider. We don’t just say, hey. Here’s our software taken and use a good look SPI. Good luck SPI agents. Let us know how it goes.

Jordan [00:06:56]:
When something bad happens in your network, I mean, we care deeply. We wanna engage, and we’re gonna help you figure out what happened and how we prevent it from happening again, and if we can help in recovery. And today, we’ve been very successful in helping brokers that had something bad happen recover recover, and then also, like, Preventing it from happening to to other brokers.

Mike Mikulik [00:07:16]:
Okay. So, like, I mean, a lot of this is all falling on 3 people companies like ourselves and even our Competitors. That’s that’s happening to them. But I’m finding talking to shippers, I don’t think they’ve really see how bad it actually is out there. I think they’re just relying on All the brokers to deal with the problem and to ensure they’re putting a carrier that’s reputable and it’s gonna move it from point a to point b in a in a timely manner and communicate along the way. Like, what can shippers do? Like, how do we educate shippers, and what what should be your message to shippers about utilizing tools like Highway to help us?

Jordan [00:07:47]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So So highway, we only sell the freight brokers. We we we believe deeply that we serve 1 you you can’t have 2 masters. You can’t serve 2 masters. Right? So, You know, some people in the freight tech industry like to serve brokers, and then they take brokers data and they go sell it to shippers. They take, you know, their customers’ data and go sell it to their customer’s customer. And we just We don’t do that.

Jordan [00:08:06]:
But what we do do and what we have, we probably have a half dozen, if not 10 shippers now that that We say they wanted to use highway. We say, hey. You you can’t. We only we only we only serve brokers, but if you wanna use brokers that use highway, like, You should do that. And so we have some shippers now, some big ones that say, hey, brokers at our mind network. If you’re not using highway, you’re not gonna be invited back to the bid season Because they see the benefit of the the they see the benefit of having a a tool like Highway that’s looking across 400 brokers for fraud and fraud events to protect their freight. And so it’s creating more opportunities for highway brokers And that’s what we’re looking forward to in 2024 is we wanna create a a program where we can help brokers that are using highways stand out. Like, they’re they’re going the Sure.

Jordan [00:08:52]:
Because it’s it’s harder to do this right. It’s harder because you just hire every carrier that comes through and says, hey. I’m a carrier. I want this load. So you’re doing more work. You should be rewarded for that, and you should be rewarded for that by having more opportunities with shippers and being able to tell shippers, hey. We don’t just hire any carrier that shows up I sent an email, and we don’t just take any email and trust that it’s the carrier they claim to be. We take these additional steps.

Jordan [00:09:15]:
We verify them with MFA. We make sure They have presence in the US, and if they have some red flags, we make sure we can see their ELD before we hire them. We know that we’re not just booking something in the dark. We can see the chart that we’re about to put it on. Right.

Mike Mikulik [00:09:28]:
So, like, what cut so as a shipper, what questions should a shipper be asking a broker before he does business with them? Yeah.

Jordan [00:09:34]:
Yeah. I think the first question is, what does it look like For your carrier on for your carrier vetting process. Okay.

Mike Mikulik [00:09:40]:
What are the what are the what are

Jordan [00:09:41]:
the tools that you’re using to to vet carriers today? The second thing I think you can ask is around, should we should be asking is around how are you protecting the rate confirmation and pickup information? Right? Because if you you a lot of this load fishing, They’re not even onboarding. They’re just trying to get you to send the right confirmation to some email address that they control while pretending to be this carrier over here. And so that’s where, you know, with the Outlook plug in and and, and being able to look up emails in in highway, but also having highway be able to send the right confirmation for you, make sure it gets where he needs to go. Those are the those are that’s the second thing I would say to a shipper is, like, how is your pick of information being protected? Because if that becomes compromised, number 1 doesn’t matter. If they have the pickup number, they’re gonna get they’re gonna be able to steal that load. And number 3, I would say is It’s how do they think about this holistically in terms of reporting, in terms of their business. Right? You have a network. SPI has this network, and it’s our job to be the firewall for your network and prevent bad traffic from from getting in.

Jordan [00:10:40]:
Now what can happen is that can slow down some good factors. Some good carriers may look Bad on the outside because of some choices or some things that factors out of their control.

Mike Mikulik [00:10:49]:
Right.

Jordan [00:10:49]:
And that is a part of any filter. You’ve gotta Continue to refine that so the good carriers have a great experience and get get through while keeping out the bad actors and that are gonna cause problems. So if I’m a shipper, I’m asking those 3, those 3 questions of my brokers.

Mike Mikulik [00:11:04]:
Perfect. So like even a shipper, what can a shipper do to work with a broker that try to help? I I mean, is there a communication flow that should be happening when there’s a load a load confirmation sent out and the communication between shipper and broker to help them alleviate Some of these challenges when the the carrier shows up on the dock and ready to pick up their cargo?

Jordan [00:11:23]:
Yeah. I think, you know, for for a shipper, like, they wanna know that the brokers that they’re using has These processes in place to make sure that there’s protection of their confidential information. It’s confidential information that rate that that pickup number, that pickup information. That information, they need to know that a broker is doing the right things to protect it like FBI. Like, you guys are using Highway to make sure that once you have that valuable information, it’s only going to not only the right carrier, but a carrier that would meet the standards of SPI that you’re gonna that you’re willing to send in to go pick up that load. You know, We talk about this a lot. As a as a freight broker, you don’t actually get to show up and and own the you don’t actually physically there. Right? Right.

Jordan [00:12:03]:
Your carrier that you’re in is the extension of your brand. Right? So we’ve talked

Mike Mikulik [00:12:08]:
about that a lot. Like,

Jordan [00:12:09]:
is this someone that you want representing your brand At your customers or at your customer’s customer’s doc. Right? And and so that’s why this preventative care is so important, and that’s why working with carriers that are willing to provide transparency is so important. Because if they’re willing to go through the process and they’re willing to do things right, Then that is gonna save you so much headache and pain on the back end of maybe they don’t just steal the load. Maybe they don’t broker, but maybe they give your shipper a really bad experience.

Mike Mikulik [00:12:40]:
And trying to get out of that is is hard.

Jordan [00:12:42]:
Yeah. Exactly. So, like,

Mike Mikulik [00:12:43]:
the process with highway, we’re trying to weed out these these carriers. What are some of the things that or the milestones or safety points that you guys check out to to verify a carrier?

Jordan [00:12:53]:
Yeah. So we think about risk Matrix. So this is my background in banking. When you think about, risk, you think about here’s the high risk, low risk, and there’s all kinds of factors Along the way that can make you look high risk. So there’s this basic principle we use at highway. There are 2 kinds of people. There are good guys and bad guys. Very simplistic.

Mike Mikulik [00:13:14]:
Simple things. Alright. Okay.

Jordan [00:13:15]:
But here’s the difference. So the so how do you tell the difference between a good guy and a bad guy? Well, Bad guys don’t wanna leave footprints, and so a lot of what we do in highway is if we can’t see footprints. Right? Because if you leave footprints at the scene of crime, you’re gonna get caught. The same is true with people that are trying to commit freight fraud as they are trying to hide and obfuscate their identity. And so as we We we do through our process is identify high risk carriers and say, hey. Like, give them the chance to to offer us the His ability to know that they’re a great carrier and a good carrier. If they do, they’re gonna pass their flying calls. And a lot of that is around, you know, mobile phone verification.

Jordan [00:13:53]:
It’s around ELD verification. And it’s around, you know, insurance and making sure all those things are aligned and telling the same story. And if that’s happening, they’re gonna make it through great. And there’s about a 100 and 40 to a 150,000 carriers that are approved, passing the rules, insurance on file Right. Ready to go on highway. But now the carriers Don’t wanna do that. That’s your warning sign. That’s the sign of, like, if they’re not willing to show and give you that transparency if they’re not willing to give it to you before you give them the look, why would they

Mike Mikulik [00:14:20]:
give it to you after? Makes sense. So, like, thinking about let’s just delve deeper now into our business. I wanna talk in with our agents and Yeah. Yes. We’re on highway. Yes. You know, there’s hiccups with any type of software that comes in. And I think your agents wanna know I see the potential as this is a huge selling feature as to what we’ve We’ve invested in technology wise into highway to protect our customers.

Mike Mikulik [00:14:45]:
So how can our agents use this as a tool, as a selling tool to give, you know, peace of mind to their or to their customers and also to help them get other customers.

Jordan [00:14:54]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So when you when you think about, Freight brokers. Right? There’s 8,000 freight there’s there’s 30,000 registered freight brokers in the US. There’s about 8 to 10000 active. So how do you stand out? So you’re talking to your customer. How do I stand out as SPI or an agent of SPI? One of the ways that you you talk about what the shippers care about is Service and stability. Right? Those are 2 components they care about in their supply chain.

Jordan [00:15:18]:
You are you are literally being given the keys to their revenue cycle. Right? And so when you show up and say, hey, at SPI, we don’t just we don’t just make it easy for we don’t we don’t just let anyone get in. Right? We wanna make sure that we’re working with high quality vetted carriers. And if they’re high quality vetted carriers, yeah, they can get in really easy, but we make sure we make sure shippers that We are taking the the security of your freight seriously. We care about we care about the outcome for you as a shipper, not just, You know? Hey. What’s the cheapest carrier we can find to get this load moved? And and that, I think, is what separates the high quality brokers and agents like SPI From a lot of these people who, you know, are just trying to make a dollar and putting risk. You gotta think about the risk that can be put on that shipper’s business. In Talking as an agent and you’re talking to your customer, that shipper, you wanna be communicating that you’re not just taking the easy way out.

Jordan [00:16:14]:
Right. You’re here Here to think about the long term and building long term relationship by executing day in, day out, and using high quality providers to get them great results.

Mike Mikulik [00:16:24]:
I’ve I fully agree. I mean, I I see it, but you have a carrier that the funeral just lasts. It’s like, oh, yes. There’s my potential to make a few a little bit more money. Coming along with that, also risk. And the customers, they’re asking, like, boy, yeah. They’re still about rates. We a lot of customers are still about rates.

Mike Mikulik [00:16:39]:
What’s the rate gonna be? And I think we need to say, like, Hey. Yes. They have this carry a couple $100 less, but I’ll tell you what, how he shows up in the system, I have some reservations about it. This carry, for instance, is a few dollars more, which is actually more in line with what the market rate is, but I feel comfortable with this carry. This carrier is going to do a good job. We’re not gonna have any transactional issues. We’re have open communication with them. So I think there’s that segregation that you gotta segregate and also sell it to our customers that way.

Jordan [00:17:07]:
Yeah. And, You know, there’s so many scenes around this, you know, stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime. Right? Right. And and, you know, you think about you’re putting at risk potentially 100 of 1,000 of dollars of freight on that load. And not only that, but the relationship with that shipper to save a couple $100. And I we we we talk about this a lot during our in our training process with with customers is carrier authority does not make you a carrier. No longer like, that doesn’t work anymore. There’s too many shell MC numbers out there.

Jordan [00:17:39]:
I mean, there are tens of thousands of shell and seeing numbers out there that are just sitting dormant that people have registered that aren’t actually active motor carriers. And We need to do more to make sure that who we’re about to hire is actually a true carrier, has the equipment they say they do, Equipment is insured and that they’re actually gonna show up and do what you need to do. And a big, big part of that is the willingness to provide transparency. And I just I can’t I can’t emphasize it enough that if we’re thinking about building long term value for your agents and for SPI Mhmm. We need to think about service level through the cycle. We need to think about carrier usage through the cycle. Absolutely. Today, Shippers are more rate sensitive, but that’s gonna change someday soon.

Jordan [00:18:25]:
And we and we we wanna make sure that we think about what we’re doing through these these cycles and building long term value for SPI’s agents and SPI, whether it’s a down market or up market. And one area that we don’t wanna we don’t wanna compromise on is the quality of the Carriers that you’re allowing in the SPI network because that is brand. Right? The carriers are an extension of your brand, and So we need to think about when we’re bringing them into our network, are these brand ambassadors? Right? The people that we do want representing our SPI or SPI agent At the dock of our customer.

Mike Mikulik [00:18:58]:
Yeah. Makes so much sense. Interesting enough too is the fact that a lot of how do you say it here? These carriers the good ones the good ones are gonna give our our customers a really good experience. The bad ones can leave things in a bad experience. But do you think there’s value in our agents or just any any broker, for instance, going to the customer and saying, listen. I go, What impact does a fraudulent if your load is stolen have on your business? Or, you know what, if you also gonna lose complete visibility of that load because it’s been double appropriate, how does that affect your business? And painting that ugly picture to a shipper that when these bad things happen, there’s an impact to you.

Jordan [00:19:37]:
Yeah. And and I mean, it each case is Each case is different. Right? So for a CPG company, they have certain they have certain quote thresholds and delivery velocity. They have to keep up with the food retailers or the food distribution distribution, you know, the wholesalers for those food retailers. If they don’t meet that velocity, they’re not keeping that Amount of good flowing when they’ve committed to deliver it, they they’re gonna lose business. They’re gonna lose revenue, and it’s not just and, again, like, it’s not just about replacing the cost. When you replace the cost of retail, they don’t book that as revenue. And every single one of them have investors, every single one of them have financial reporting, and they’re all trying to grow their revenue.

Jordan [00:20:15]:
And so with even just 1 truckload not getting to the Wegmans distribution center when it was supposed to, it’s gonna negatively impact their quarter. 100%. Their quarter will be impacted by them. Now you’re talking about 2, 3, 4 loads that get stolen. Now we have a real problem that now c He is gonna be hearing about it at that that shipper. It gets worse when you talk about like branded apparel. When you talk about things that are licensed, No licensed goods, and you potentially have a customer that’s in possession of another brand’s licensed goods like Nike apparel or some other brand apparel. Mhmm.

Jordan [00:20:49]:
If that those if that truckload disappears, now your customer’s customer is involved. Right? Because now you have their product on the black market, their Product going into flea markets, give their product just to go into, you know, illicit distribution channels, maybe showing back up on Amazon and creating Bad outcomes for consumers, and that’s an even bigger issue for them reputationally. So I think, again, it just comes back to, like, Showing up and being a service provider that thinks about providing quality through the cycles, in through the cycle. This will turn. This day will pass. Right? There will be a strong mark. The market will swing back the other way, and it will happen in the middle of the night when none of us expected. Not even you know, my good friend Craig Frode was gonna know pretty well predict it.

Jordan [00:21:32]:
Actually, the agents are probably the best at predicting it because they’re so close to the metal. They’re so close to the hell.

Mike Mikulik [00:21:37]:
They can

Jordan [00:21:37]:
Feel it. Right? But it’ll come. And just being, you know, keeping the discipline, there’s certain disciplines that we need to refine and And build that muscle in bad markets and good markets, and this is one because this is when you think about the impact of a stolen loader, impact of a hostage load, Even if it gets delayed 2 days, like, that those impacts last forever. It you know, it takes what is it takes, you know, Reputation is gained by the inch and lost by the mile. You know, it’s the consistent, continual execution that allows you to build that reputation, that brand, Then just 1 bad character, bad 1 bad actor can mess it up.

Mike Mikulik [00:22:16]:
And that’s the thing. I mean, this this ties nicely, man. We painted the big ugly picture of how this could affect Our customer our customer’s business and even their customer’s customer. Yeah. All of over saving 2, $300 on a load going with a carrier that’s a low cost Fair. Like, it doesn’t when you paint the ugly picture, all of a sudden, the shipper’s gonna be like, yeah. You know what? I’d rather go with somebody a little bit more solid and reputable.

Jordan [00:22:39]:
Well, then and I, you know, and now let’s let’s talk about so we talk about use the term, you know, I don’t like to use the term carrier when we talk about fraudulent actors. Like they have carrier authority, but they’re not a carrier. Right? The The people out there, the carriers are actually running this freight. Like, we wanna create great outcomes for them as well. So, like, whenever carriers are willing to engage with highway and bring transparency, They they find more business. They’re gonna find more brokers willing to work with them, because they’re gonna show up in more search results. We know that carriers that provide transparency or connect a DOD device, they show up 20 times they’re 20 times more likely to show up in a search result Then a carrier that doesn’t in highway. Because brokers I mean, tens of thousands of brokers

Mike Mikulik [00:23:18]:
And not everyone’s doing it.

Jordan [00:23:19]:
Highway sourcing every day, And they’re seeing these carriers that are willing to provide transparency, and they’re getting more freight. We talked to a carrier that’s got 6 trucks. It’s a reefer carrier out of the Midwest, And they they, you know, they were hesitant about connecting their ELD, and I ended up on the phone with them talking through. I was like they’re like, why would we do this? I was like, here’s why. We’re doing this to protect you. So someone tries to pretend to be you and picking up a load in Florida, it’s not you. You don’t run outside the deadwax, and we’re gonna help protect you there. The second is it’s gonna bring you to the surface.

Jordan [00:23:48]:
People wanna work with people that provide transparency, and, like, whenever you people are searching for reefer carriers in the Midwest, they now show up in the top five Because they’re they’re providing that that transparency, and we want to reward them with great outcomes because they’re great actors and because they are good people doing good work out there. And the 3rd thing we talk about with them is as a broker, you are you know, the broker prior to Highway, before you could see the ELD data, before you could see where the carrier was, You’re booking in the dark. Maybe you can go to SAFR and see something or maybe you got some data in your TMS, but you’re booking in the dark. We want that to go away. We We want that to be a thing in the past, where in the future, we have great carriers and great brokers working together. Right? And, like, there’s Gonna be disputes. There gonna be frustration.

Mike Mikulik [00:24:34]:
Of course, sir.

Jordan [00:24:35]:
It’s just it’s just the natural order of things, but it brings the the cream of the crop to the surface, and it leaves These fraudulent actors on both sides. There’s fraudulent actors pretending to be brokers ripping off carriers, and there’s fraudulent actors pretending to be carriers ripping off brokers. We need to get where those people aren’t allowed inside the game, and so that the people that are are doing good work, both brokers and carriers can So you can can feed one another.

Mike Mikulik [00:25:00]:
And that’s the way it should be. I mean, there are there are brokers that are that shouldn’t even be being broke. I mean, I guess, again so let’s talk a little bit about You guys are you guys are partnering now with with the, the TIA, and I think that’s that’s great. Can we talk a little bit about, you know, that partnership and what you guys are looking to accomplish? What are some of the goals

Jordan [00:25:17]:
Yeah. So our partnership with, the TIA is around the watchdog program. So the TIA watchdog, was is this there’s A fraud reporting service. The TIA has had around for probably 10, 15 years, and it was kinda put up on the it it wasn’t getting a lot of over investment. I think, you know Yeah. You probably saw it before it got redone. And so we’re losing adoption. Brokers were wanting to to use it.

Jordan [00:25:40]:
And so what we did is we we took, it took about 6 months. I worked with the CIA on redesigning it and providing a lot more value, to to brokers that are TIA members. So So if you’re a TIA member, you can log in to ti watch dog .com with your official TIA email, and you get a lot more value and you did before. We’re gonna show you things like insights. We’re gonna show you, a couple, you know, free looks, at carriers and show you If we see real detail, what it is, we’re gonna give you some lot more information so that you are being able to protect yourself. And then where that what that leads to is that’s where fraud reporting happens at the CIA. So 2000, 25 100 member companies roughly with the CIA, and they’re now using that more active. I think we’ve seen 20 times more, carrier views that that were previously we see a 30% 30 x increase in the number of fraud reporting, and that’s really helping cut this stuff off before it gets legs.

Jordan [00:26:40]:
And a lot of that fraud are pointing, Mike, is not, hey. You know, my load got brokered or stolen. It’s it’s catching up before it turns into that. When the email phishing campaigns are coming out. So these guys, these fraudulent actors pretending to be carriers are emailing in, you know, to with you a little email bestonelogistics@gmail.com, but they’ll use a one instead of spelling out one, which is the right way the right email. And they’re trying to get the broker to give them that load pertaining to be a carrier that’s already in their network. And that’s what’s getting reported, and that’s Stopping the fraud from happening because now that email’s flagged. Every broker that uses TI Watchdog or Highway is now gonna have visibility that That email’s compromised.

Jordan [00:27:21]:
Don’t trust it.

Mike Mikulik [00:27:22]:
Yeah. Which is huge. So we’re finding these ways here to try to try to weed this out, which I think is great. So, I I mean, this seems like this is an evolving process for you guys. Like, what we have now, you gotta continue to evolve. So what are some of the things on the horizon for highway, some of the new Tools that we can probably expect coming out, and how are they gonna benefit us?

Jordan [00:27:40]:
Yeah. So we’ll talk about tools for both brokers and carriers.

Mike Mikulik [00:27:43]:
Okay.

Jordan [00:27:43]:
So, You know, we’ve we’ve spent a lot of time so thus far building a lot of products from brokers. Why we did that is, one, that’s where my relationships were was with the freight broker community. The second was We believe that if we can stop the fraud at that point in the cycle, we can prevent a lot of downstream, and we’ve been able to do that. But the next step is we’re rolling out a carrier product that’s gonna be free for carriers that are, in in register with Highway and and providing transparency. That they’re gonna be able to go and see and look up brokers and see a lot of the same things that brokers can see on carriers. And it’s gonna provide a lot of transparency about Where is this person actually accessing highway from? Are you know, is this really the broker they claim to be? You know, what kind of payment data have we been able to see on this broker? Like, You know? They’ve had authority for 2 years, but no one’s bought an invoice from him in 2 years. Like, what you know, what’s going on? And provide a lot of that visibility to carriers so that they can Vet the people that they’re about to do business with. Additionally, we’re gonna provide a rate confirmation delivery tool for for carriers and brokers a secure way.

Jordan [00:28:47]:
It’s available today. They can just use their MC number at gohighway.com, and they can be protected when people are sending them rate cons. Highway’s gonna tell tell them That’s not the broker it claims to be. They’re trying to pretend to be another broker, or we don’t know who that broker is. You should make them go verify their identity before you work with Those tools for carriers, I think, are gonna help a lot. Prevent a lot of fraud that they’re facing today. My buddy, I told you this earlier. You know, For instance, kindergarten.

Jordan [00:29:14]:
Went to high school together. He runs 2 trucks out of West Texas. You know, he got stopped. And it impacted personally. You know? And it’s and there’s nowhere for him to go. The the dollar price are too low. It’s not worth the time going to, you know, the collection agencies because, You know, he’s like it’s just it’s and he’s stuck, and no one’s no one’s helping him. And so that’s where a lot of inspiration with this carrier products come from is how do we help Carriers prevent bad stuff from happening to them and their network before it gets in.

Jordan [00:29:45]:
So that’s gonna pass carrier broker relations

Mike Mikulik [00:29:48]:
the way this is going. I I like I think it’s it’s it’s beautiful. It’s just it’s good stuff, and it’s gonna everyone’s gonna win. It’s gonna become a win win for everybody. You have people.

Jordan [00:29:58]:
Yeah. And, you know, we and that’s why we try and be mindful of when we talk about the fraud, not carriers. They They’re pretending to be carriers. You wanna talk about the fraud. They’re not brokers. They’re pretending to be brokers. And what’s what’s what’s hurting the good actors, right, the bad apples are spoiling the whole lot Is there you know, brokers are getting burned by these fraudulent actors pretending to be carriers, and carriers are being burned by these fraudulent actors pretending to be brokers. Uh-huh.

Jordan [00:30:23]:
And it’s causing just reputational damage across this entire industry. The need both these industries need each other, and they and and And there is great outcomes that can be had for all. And and, yes, there’s gonna be disputes along the way, and people are gonna be frustrated. And there’s miscommunication, and there’s, you know, unmet expectations about when they thought they were gonna be voted versus not in their and there are bad actions taken by both sides. I think ultimately, the more that we can bring Transparency and trust. The the trust that I’m working with something like SPI. So so think about this. Like, a carrier that’s been around In the business 6, 9 months.

Jordan [00:30:59]:
Never worked with SPI. They may not know how big you are. Right? And, like, so part of what we wanna do in the highway is exposed to these small carriers. This is a big broker. That means they’re credit worthy. That means reputationally, they’ve been doing this a long time. He’s been doing something right. In then 3, it’s like, you know they’re gonna have more freight for you.

Jordan [00:31:19]:
So you’re willing to take that load. You wanna go engage them because they’re gonna have Freight.

Mike Mikulik [00:31:23]:
And they don’t have an active Salesforce out there selling their their their carrier services to the markets. They for them, parking up with a broker could be a win win for them.

Jordan [00:31:31]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And with your agent model, what’s great, I think, you know, we wanna do a better job as per to showing to these carriers, to these carrier products is, hey. It’s not just like SPI, this one broker. There’s 60, 70, 80 agents out there that are out there hustling all day every day getting ship or freight. Like, Come work with them because you got 60 at bats. You got 60 salespeople out there for you now Yeah. Pushing freight for you.

Jordan [00:31:54]:
So we’re gonna work on, like, that messaging, and that’s what we Worked with you earlier. It’s just like how do we how do we communicate value prop that, you know, these brokers that do good work and are paying carriers Or not trying to work people over. How do we raise that to the surface so carriers know where to go home? Know what what carrier what brokers they should be working for. Yeah.

Mike Mikulik [00:32:15]:
And that I guess that’s a trust factor. So alright. Let’s let’s break it down a little bit a little bit more here. So, you know, we’re we have a great vetting pool utilizing highway, like, Brokers that are that don’t have a vetting program. Like, what are some of these the the the challenges and the rest of their experience kind of moving forward as as we’re seeing right now. Do you

Jordan [00:32:35]:
have any stories to share? Or Yeah. I mean, the the sophistication, level is is getting Pretty pretty incredible. Right? It’s it’s getting they are trying new things. They’re Some of the things we see one of the ones that I heard the other day,

Mike Mikulik [00:32:54]:
like, this stuff changes daily?

Jordan [00:32:55]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s why I like you know, when people will say, like, oh, you know, let’s have a, Yeah. You gotta move fast to keep up with these guys because they’re they’re not they don’t have some committee where they’re sitting around talking about, oh, what should we do? Or, you know, They’re like they’re trying stuff all day every day. So some of the some of the statistics, we see 200 Reported phishing attempts per week. Wow.

Jordan [00:33:21]:
That’s crazy. 200. I mean, the scale of it is That’s 200 sorry. That’s not 200 total. That’s 200 unique email attempts. Yeah. So there’s probably a1000 Or more with those same emails. So that’s 200 unique emails that they’ve used to try and finish.

Mike Mikulik [00:33:39]:
It only takes 1 to get us started. It only

Jordan [00:33:40]:
takes 1. See, they’re playing for a lot of tickets. We’re playing defense. So, One of the ones that was I mean, the subtlety of it the genius was in the subtlety of what they did, and these these guys are this good. They they They got a carrier sales rep at a large broker, and they use a a a reasonably sized large carrier, 50 50 trucks. And they Said, hey. I want that load that you posted on on this load board. And, hey.

Jordan [00:34:04]:
Send the rate confirmation here. And they gave the domain that was The exact match for that carrier’s email domain. Like, it was they didn’t try to spoof email domain. It was a corporate domain. And they said, hey. Email it to this user c The last was at this domain, and the did the right thing, and he went and checked the domain. He sent the email, Didn’t hear anything back, and all of a sudden, you know, an hour or 30 minutes after pickup was supposed to happen, he gets a call from someone pretending to be the driver and Play the whole played the whole role. Frustrated.

Jordan [00:34:37]:
Pickup number’s not working. You know? What did you do? The pit’s not the right pick up number. Give me the pick up number. What’s pick up number? I’m sitting here. I’m about to leave if I don’t get this pickup number. And the carrier sales rep gave him the pickup number over the Oh. And that’s all it took. The the see, the car sales rep in his mind had sent it to the right place.

Jordan [00:34:56]:
So he nothing was amiss to him. Right? And he just assumed they hadn’t responded. And then when that phone call came from the driver, in his mind, the continuation of the experience was, oh, yeah. Like, I mean, how does that happen? Right? The driver doesn’t get the pickup number or can’t read the pickup number on the rate con because there’s, like, 80 numbers on there. Right? And they they fell for it. Load got stolen. Just like that. And they were smart enough to know they picked a company domain that didn’t bounce back.

Jordan [00:35:23]:
Right. See, well, that was a fake user at that company. Uh-huh. So they sent that email to, you know, carrier you know, cblast was at carrierlogistics.com. That was Domain. I wanna say who the carrier was, but they knew that that email wouldn’t bounce back. So they tested it because, you know, some email servers you send in, there’s no user there, it’ll bounce back. Right.

Jordan [00:35:41]:
Right. No one here. And it’s Kind of a security thing. Some people decide not to do that or do that. So it was sophisticated. It was thought out, And the subtlety of the that last move there where they call the Jerry Sills and pretend to be the driver is is act it’s it’s really good. It’s Scary. And they’re gonna

Mike Mikulik [00:36:00]:
come up with new tactics all the time, and they’re gonna keep on trying it. Yeah. So I mean, the rest of these smaller brokers that don’t have a real bidding process in place or ways to alleviate this are gonna have some challenges?

Jordan [00:36:11]:
Yeah. You you’ve gotta be you’ve gotta be vigilant. You’ve gotta be on your guard all the time, and that that’s our job For you, for your firewall. So, like, you know, every network has a firewall, and that’s the tip of the spear that’s out there trying to protect Things from getting into the network. That’s what our job is. So, like, we look at all this data coming in, and we’re looking at, you know, how they’re fishing for For these loads, we’re looking at what kind of loads they’re fishing for, and we’re tracking this data, and it allows us to proactive. And that’s kind of the next step with the broker communities. We’re gonna start providing this proactive intelligence about where we think they’re trying to strike or what loads we think they’re going for, and that will help you be more high alert.

Jordan [00:36:50]:
Right? So So the key is focusing your energy on high risk situations. Right? So they’re not stealing bottled water.

Mike Mikulik [00:36:57]:
No. They’re still bottled water. They are stealing pickles. We had a pickle load that got stolen. Yeah. They’re not selling bottled water loads,

Jordan [00:37:03]:
but they’re they’re targeting certain commodities that are either easy to move or high value or both. Right. And then they’re targeting in certain ZIP codes. There’s there’s certain restrictions.

Mike Mikulik [00:37:11]:
What what kind of areas then are they targeting right now?

Jordan [00:37:13]:
We don’t we don’t say that publicly. Okay. We we It’s it’s in highway. Right? Like, that’s Yeah. That’s the job here. We don’t wanna disclose what we know because then it’ll shift their tactics. Right? So we wanna, you know, we want to, as much as possible, Hold what we think we know. I’ll deliver it to you in a way that in in highway.

Jordan [00:37:30]:
That’s why sometimes in highway, you’re like, why is this more challenging for This is curious because there’s something we’re seeing about a pattern that we may not reveal to the carrier or reveal to the user, but we’re testing out in the background to say, okay. Let’s try that to See if that stops some of this activity. And we measure. We everything we do, we do AB testing where we’re saying, hey. We’re gonna try it on this carrier or try it on that carrier to see what happens. And and we’ve had some that yield great results that we don’t publicly disclose what we know, that the pattern that we see, but it’s running in the background if you’re a highway broker and it’s checking that. And, you know, that will always be how we attack things. And then once something has become revealed or known, then we may publicly

Mike Mikulik [00:38:07]:
disclose what it was. But as

Jordan [00:38:08]:
long as we know It’s working. We’re not gonna disclose it.

Mike Mikulik [00:38:11]:
Good on you for not sharing it with me, man. Yeah. So I know our agents probably a question that they may have is, like, Yeah. I’ve been dealing with this carrier prior to highway. I’ve been dealing with a carrier for years. I know I know their kids. I know. Awesome.

Mike Mikulik [00:38:25]:
Right? I know them well. Then all of a sudden, they get onboarded at the highway and it failed. Yeah. What’s the child what how how talk let’s talk let’s talk through that a little bit.

Jordan [00:38:34]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So every firewall It’s gonna his his goal is to only catch all the bad traffic and let all the good traffic come through. But in reality, there’s an overlap. Right? There is there’s traffic that’s gray. It’s not all black and white. And what I would tell you is if you know that to be true, that’s great. Get that carrier through.

Jordan [00:38:50]:
You know, there’s a process to to bring them through with the overrides, and, Like, maybe there’s a story that that needs to be told, and and we’re always receptive. We talk to carriers all the time. We’re talking to carriers, I’m trying to understand different situations, what’s happening, and it it it’s difficult because the wolves are in cheap clothing. Right? They’re they’re hiding. They’re trying to hide as a sheep, and they’re trying to look like a a carrier. So I would say every there are absolutely new on situations, and we’re always Open to hearing and learning about it. I will say, though, that that is the lever that people try and pull, and there are Dozens, if not a 100 or more stories of carrier brokers have done live with highway that it’s revealed something in their network that Scares him a little bit. Like, we’ve been working with this carrier for how long, and we didn’t know this was going on.

Jordan [00:39:37]:
There’s,

Mike Mikulik [00:39:37]:
like, there’s a key there. Yeah. Could be stuff that we don’t even know about. That it’s something was you guys picked up, and that’s where the red flags come.

Jordan [00:39:44]:
Can we talk about yeah. And so we talk about green, you know, green, yellow, red. Right? And when you see those yellow flags, those insights, it’s an opportunity for conversation. It’s an opportunity to have a conversation. Why you know, and we’ve been working there a long time. I didn’t know you had broker authority. Or why is there broker authority 3 houses down from you? Or, you know, can we talk about that? Like, you know, well, you only got 1 truck you’re scheduled on, but you got 10 that have been inspected. Were these leased on carriers, Based on drivers, are these your drivers? Right? Yeah.

Jordan [00:40:10]:
It’s an opportunity to arm you with a conversation, and that is that’s worth so much. Because when you show up to a conversation with information to be able to ask really good questions. You’re gonna find out whether you push on a nerve that, man, maybe there was something going on that you you wanted to be aware of, or Maybe there’s a story. Maybe there’s a reason why. Maybe they have a certain type of freight that they’re moving that’s making it look like they they have They’re running more billable miles than they can when reality. They’re they’re doing everything right on the up and up. I’ve seen it both ways, and and I’ve seen it both ways, but I will tell you More often than not, you need to trust the data, and the insights leads

Mike Mikulik [00:40:48]:
to be There’s something there.

Jordan [00:40:50]:
More often there’s the conversations had and you walk away being like, I probably should be a little more cautious than I was before.

Mike Mikulik [00:40:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s the key. Yeah. That’s the key. You know know what? Everyone has a story too. Not everything is gonna be rosy, but After you could pick those things up and find ways to protect yourself is huge. So And

Jordan [00:41:07]:
you think about proactive communication setting expectations in any relationship. Proactive communication, setting expectations, reduces conflict because of unmet expectations down the road. Having a conversation with, you know, this carrier who Before you didn’t know he had the broker authority under his name across town or whatever. You find out how he’s got broker authority or you find out now he’s got lease on drivers. Just having the conversation about, hey. I’m aware of this now. Hey. Can we can we make sure that my freight doesn’t end End up in your broker side.

Jordan [00:41:35]:
Like, let’s just be clear. Like, I know you have broker authority now. Like, it can’t my freight can’t be brokered. If you can’t cover it, your truck breaks down. Don’t be a hero. I need you to be here, and that happens. Like, carriers wanna be the here. They don’t wanna get the freight back.

Mike Mikulik [00:41:46]:
And their intentions are good.

Jordan [00:41:47]:
They’re good. But what they don’t understand is the the The liability that’s created when that Yes. That’s right. That’s an education. We do that all the time. Like, carriers will say, man, I was just trying to do the right thing. I get it. Sometimes bad things can happen when you do the right thing, and that’s where we say, hey.

Jordan [00:42:02]:
Look. It’s better for you to get the freight back than to do something that’s outside the contract That introduces risk not only to themselves. They don’t they don’t realize they’re reducing risk to themselves because their insurance isn’t set up to cover Another carrier calling this load that was tender to them as a motor carrier. It brings risk to the broker. It brings risk to the shipper. It brings risk all along the the chain of of custody there. And that’s a we’ve had a great opportunity to educate a lot of a carrier on that that risk. And again, like you said, it’s Coming from a good place sometimes.

Jordan [00:42:32]:
Mhmm. And, you know, and and most guys get it. Once you explain it to them, then they get it. And it’s it’s okay if trucks break down. We also we also work whenever we see these reports come in about, you know, people frustrated because a 1 truck carrier didn’t show up because his truck went down. Trucks went down. We we don’t file those reports to get published in Hollywood because we know how hard it is for these guys. Like, we we we We have friends that are in the trucking industry.

Jordan [00:42:59]:
We people that, you know, we’ve financed for a long time. Like we care about their their outcome and we’re not gonna allow like Something bad happened. The truck broke down. They hit, you know these things happen. It’s Okay. Transperation. It gets sick. You gotta You gotta actually physically move this stuff.

Jordan [00:43:16]:
It’s not just like, you know, software, and so we wanna make sure that carriers’ reputation small carriers’ reputations are not damaged just because Something bad happened that yeah. It stinks for the broker. Right? They they have to go find another, find another carrier. They get because they fell off. Like, That’s the nature of why we’re compensated from the broker trade community is to provide that stability when a small carrier, Something happens, and they can’t make it to go find another one. That’s our job. Right? And so we shouldn’t punish people because of their their things that happen in the world that How’s breakdowns?

Mike Mikulik [00:43:49]:
Oh, I agree. I’m glad we’re able to do this. I think our agents, they needed to hear exactly what highway is, even the goals that are taking place in the future. But I think also too we’re talking about maybe having a Zoom discussion and having our agents jolt in there and asking questions back and forth to you. You’re cool? I love

Jordan [00:44:06]:
it, man. I love talking to the users because they, you know, the feedback is always valuable. I learn more about the product when I’m talking to users who are, like, Hey. This stinks. Like, when I hit the back button, this happens. I’m like, I never thought about that. So that’s the kind of stuff that, like, we learn from and grow from, and so, yeah, I’m excited. Tell me I’m I’m ready for Bring the Heat.

Jordan [00:44:24]:
I know they’re gonna they’re gonna come out.

Mike Mikulik [00:44:26]:
Get some heat.

Jordan [00:44:27]:
Yeah. It’s good.

Mike Mikulik [00:44:27]:
That’s the thing. Like, we went I remember when we changed from, CMS to Reva Nova. And you know what? You’re going through using a new tool. It’s challenging. You have your your ups and downs or it’s like, oh, it’s cumbersome, whatever it is. Over time, you know what? You get used to it, and you just kinda work through it. I think the same thing too. I mean, yes, we’ve had challenges here, you know, with the onboarding of highway and, you know, You know what? There’s been some frustrations, but the more we use it and the more we fine tune things, get the right carriers of the system that are approved, I believe things will be easier, and this is gonna be work in the background.

Mike Mikulik [00:44:58]:
Like you said, like, your firewall. That’s the one stuff and you’re not getting affected too much by it.

Jordan [00:45:02]:
Fair to say. Yeah. Absolutely. And it’s also us learning your business. You know, we we we respond you know, there are things that we know that we absolutely wanna do, right, and then how certain protections and data analysis that we’re doing that we know we wanna do. But then there’s another layer of here, like molding highway to fit your business. And so we’ve Absolutely made changes based on market that need us feedback, like, specifically around the inter Canadian carriers in that process. There’s some great feedback about how you all How do you all view the world.

Jordan [00:45:31]:
Right? And the things that you all know, because you move a lot more in Canadian freight than than we have. Yeah. Right? And so we make sure that our process It’s malleable. Like, it can fit around what you want it to do. Like and that’s you know, there’s some things that, like, are ground truths that we care about, and there’s a lot of things up here that we wanna make sure Makes great sense for SPI and its agents, and be responsive to feedback. And things are gonna change. Like, Mike, the the you know, as As things change, as your biz as SPI grows and brings more agents and boost and does more types of modes of freight, we wanna make sure that we’re meeting those needs not only today, but in the future, and you will always again, we we talk a lot about owning the outcome at Highway. Like, we don’t just deliver software and say it’s perfect.

Jordan [00:46:14]:
Hey. It it works, like, you know, it’s it’s software. It’s workflow. Workflows change and workflows break, and workflows have to be amended to make changing circumstance. And so we fully understand that, and that’s something that we I care deeply about personally. I write a lot of the code that goes in highway, and I Party wrote got some code that we’re right for feedback we got here. Like, I I’ll ride it on the plane tomorrow because you you know how much I care about SPI. You guys you guys took a bet on me when I was starting to try and pay starting to try and pay, and, like, you all good to me.

Jordan [00:46:47]:
And so, like, I Will not sleep if I I mean, after we talked to Freight Wave, and you’re like, hey. We got these 6 things we need you to fix. I worked on it that night because I I care that much about It’s because you’ve been so good to me.

Mike Mikulik [00:46:58]:
I appreciate it, man, and it’s a good partnership. It’s only gonna continue to grow too. And like I said, I I think we were talking about even coming rendezvous. Yeah. Maybe getting maybe getting fired on some more over our rendezvous, but the biggest key, and that’s why I thought it was important that we do this Yeah. For our agents, and we can also multipurpose This information on other channels, education. I think the big thing is understanding why we did it, why we signed with Highway, what are the benefits, and how can that help us so they’ll find better relationships with our customers and educate our customers. I think that was kind of the missing thing that we needed, and I’m glad we’re able to get this.

Mike Mikulik [00:47:33]:
Awesome. Hold on video and audio as well too. So thank you everyone for listening. We talked longer than we expected, didn’t we?

Jordan [00:47:38]:
That’s great. You’re good. Thanks, Mike. Alright. Thanks a lot.

Mike Mikulik [00:47:42]:
That was great. That was actually really good.

Jordan [00:47:45]:
Yeah, man. Absolutely. Anytime. Anytime. And we’ll do that Zoom with the agents and all, get on there and There are some thing, like, there’s so, like, there’s certain patterns we see in emails and Gee, like a Gmail authority rating addresses that I your estimate your bill be, and they don’t tell you why. And it’s it’s

Mike Mikulik [00:48:06]:
it’s the agent understand why we’re doing it, but I think they find it’s like, what’s hindering you’re not using it as a sales tool like this.

Jordan [00:49:07]:
Yeah. Awesome.

Mike Mikulik [00:49:11]:
Yeah. Before we set up the as well as make you send up, like, break out the the intros and the or the. Yeah. We all started and kinda make it like it was an interview. Maybe send it to the whole executive team go ahead. Or have a look at it